A reply to David Miliband…

David Miliband seems to be back in the rhythm of engaging in highly visible forms of activity. Following on from his appearance on Andrew Marr at the weekend, the other Miliband has again taken centre-stage today to deliver unto us his musings on what is wrong with the left. I note with a raised-eyebrow he did this firstly and principally from behind the security of a pay-wall over at The Times. Still, looking at some of the contents of his further comments; I can’t blame him really.

Take this rather audacious statement:

“Not since the first world war has there been this kind of domination from the right. The whole era of democratic suffrage.”

Obviously this is so hyped-up that it leaves the stratosphere of reality far behind. Has he forgotten that Labour’s last 13 years in power was preceded by 18 years of Conservative power in Britain? Has he forgotten the inter-war years and the rise of fascism across Europe? Seems so. You can see how threadbare his histrionics are in the comparisons he makes; he only chooses to include results of German elections since formation of the Federal Republic and the French result is the ‘worst since 1969’. Amazingly, he later totally contradicts his own assertion by reporting the success of the German Social Democrats in recent Hamburg state elections.

Miliband is similarly off the mark when it comes to identifying the causes of this ‘apocalypse’. He basically boils down the desertion of working class voters to fear caused by immigration. Not once does he mention the decimation of traditional manufacturing centres of working class power and identity and the abject failure of successive governments to address the issues caused herein. He doesn’t mention the spiralling poverty and rise in social inequality which occurred on the watch of the last government nor the complete lack of effort to rebuild these shattered communities accept by demonising them and choking off their financial lifelines.

Had these issues been addressed there would be awful less ‘problems’ over immigration to worry about. Indeed, it is the restrictions on immigration which push people below the radar and cause the effect on wages and job security noted. Legally unfettered immigration would mean immigrants would benefit, for example, from the legal protection of the minimum wage like every other worker; so they wouldn’t ‘undercut’ wages at all.  The left would no longer need to be torn between; “commitment to individual human rights for all people whatever their nationality and a recognition that communities depend on deep roots and long standing” because the democratically open community would provide for all and thus solidify itself. Diversity would lose its threatening hue and integration from below would take hold.

Moving onto the ‘squeezed middle’, as his brother is so beloved of calling it, he mentions the real cause of this groups social insecurity and the abject poverty afflicting the first group, only in passing saying:

The primary reason is tax and spending issues. These voters have a good lifestyle and don’t want to lose it. They certainly don’t want to trade part of it in for more generous welfare systems.

In Britain, median wages stagnated after the dot com crash, in other words well before the financial crisis.

Yes they did, and this stagnation is what lurks behind ballooning levels of ‘bad debt’ and credit dependency. While New Labour was in power it managed to sufficiently compensate this social group by showering it with welfare cash while refusing to address the underlying problem which was the declining level of wages. It’s not that welfare system became ‘over generous’ as such, more that it became an insurance policy stopping the floor falling from under this grouping. It was thus perverted from what purpose it was supposed to serve, by a Labour government that hadn’t the vision or wherewithal to do what was necessary and implement a proper incomes policy to rebalance a fundamentally unbalanced system that careered out of control. Now, this group along with the first is being crushed in the economic vice of declining wages and inflation which is rising and rising sharply. Things are looking GRIM indeed.

Miliband makes much of the association of the left with the state and the problems this has created. Fair enough, its an analysis that, from a slightly different perspective, I subscribe too but its noticeable that his prescriptions for change are lacking in many things you would expect to logically follow from this citation. He doesn’t mention promotion of new forms of social ownership like co-operatives to directly combat the problems he cites and he doesn’t mention expansion of democracy into the economic sphere.

This nonetheless, more than ‘community’, more than a ‘good society’, would unite the groups that Miliband seeks to bring back into the fold under a common banner around a radical social programme of reforms which begin a fundamentally revolutionary process of  transforming capitalism itself into something completely new. Without that, his ideas while sounding at times nice and supportable like the necessary leaven to actually make them work in practice. Without that he is still locating the crisis of the left in all the wrong places and therefore only offers solutions which are, even at the very best, half-hearted and partial.


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57 responses to “A reply to David Miliband…”

  1. John Reid says :

    It’s not my place to defend D Miliband but, his point aobut trhe Right was that as a rule Labour Gov’ts win elections whenThe demcorats win in the U.S and Social Democratic Gov’ts win in Eurpoe, Roosevelt-Attlee, Wison -Kenndey Johnson, Wilson/Callaghan – Jimmy carter,and in the ealry 90’s there was Conservative governements all over Europe,
    Once agian Darrell you call Fascism Right wing, Fascism is a Undemocratic opression oppsoed to democracy, it has nothing to do with Left or Right valuse, as In many Historians calling Stalin a Red Fascist, and our Most Fascist Mosley was in the Labour party .

    not sure what you mean by-While New Labour was in power it managed to sufficiently compensate this social group by showering it with welfare cash while refusing to address the underlying problem which was the declining level of wages

    there’s always been dififernet levels of wages in Parts of the U,K. so benfefits should be universal.


  2. Gillig says :

    As our government is becoming less relevant and increasingly subservient to the EU, Ed as leader of the opposition and prospective PM looks to be the correct choice.
    David seems to be a more natural player on the global stage, and would be more effective when we are allowed a referendum to extricate ourselves from this undemocratic farce.
    Labours outdated obsession with class is part of the problem. The party once had clear direction, aiming to improve the quality of life for the working class. It got them elected.
    Living standards for the poor of this country are now in general above basic needs. The banker justifying a bonus will say “I worked hard for it”. Who are the working class?
    Labour has done what they said they would do. Democracy however, has to take much of the credit for improvements, because Labour is so bad at wealth creation.
    People are fed up with politicians, fed up with lies and most of all furious about the decline in democracy.
    The class divide today is clearly between the political classes, self electing and able to create laws without consent or consultation, and the majority who are increasingly denied any power.
    Brown promised a referendum on the Lisbon treaty, and then signed it without holding one. He even denied parliament a proper debate by guillotining the proceedings. Article 54 of this so-called Charter of Fundamental Rights, ensures that protection of the right to freedom of speech is denied to anyone campaigning to bring back the death penalty. I don’t want to campaign for the death penalty. I will however go to war to protect my freedom of speech. How long before I am denied the right to campaign against EU membership.
    If labour want to lead a majority government, they must make certain defined manifesto promises accountable by law. Then perhaps people would believe Labour would hold a referendum. Both actions would win votes.
    It is probably of less interest to the political class, that not holding a referendum is harmful to both the UK and the EU, whatever the result.
    Ask any demonstrators on the streets for their opinion of the political classes they pay to represent them. You will get the same answer whatever they are demonstrating about. Let the people see politicians working hard for democracy and you will get their votes. Perhaps then the politicians will be able to proudly call themselves working class.


  3. Gillig says :

    It has just occured to me that the EU politicians are probably protecting the political classes necks with their denial of free speech. There is more than one type of guillotine. N’est pas?


  4. darrellgoodliffe says :


    I call it that because that is what it is. Ultimately, capitalism persists under fascism though not in quite the same way as it does in a liberal democracy and yes I think its right wing because it also rests on right wing tenants like nationalism and the nation state.

    Stalin wasn’t a red fascist because fascism means something very precise and its also based on racial sterotypes ideals and scapegoating. He was a brutal dictator and a barbaric one but the SU wasn’t fascist in the proper use of the term I would aruge.

    I mean it insulated the middle classes from falling wages, rising debt by compensating them through the welfare system. I agree with you, benefits should be universal but they also need to fufil their primary function to support those in most need. This is why I support a universal Citizens Income which ensures there is a income which nobody falls below.


  5. John Reid says :

    So Franko in spain wasn’t fascist because he wasn’t a racist then,I didnt say that the Soviet union was fascistic just stalin (who incidentally was anti semetic) was a fascist, Fascism is anti democratic using fear and intimidation to inpose your view on someone with no remorse, so left wingers can be fascists,
    loook up tebbit on the closed shop in the 1970;s


  6. darrellgoodliffe says :


    Well actually that is a moot point and one that does raise the contradictions within it. I am just a bit weary of using the term in a blanket way. Your right about Stalin who did utalise anti-semitism against Trotsky.

    The closed shop was not fascist, thats just absurd. And I dont think anybody should take lectures from Tebbit on facism.


  7. John Reid says :

    the closed shop:-so you had to join a union even if you didn’t want to that union could bring you out on strike even if you didn’t want to, if you refused to join,you were sacked from your job and you weren’t entitled to unemployment benefit and Foots response when this happened to 6 people was “they had no one to blame but themselves” Now I joined Laobur in 1987 when we still backed the closed shop for 2 years, I think Tebbit was right to call Foot a fascist, Whats your problem with Tebbit he’s the most sucsessfull poltiican going ,it was he who was behind Most of Thathcers bills,
    and when he first critiscised multicultraulism in 97 he was roundly criticised yet The likes of Trevor Philips ,Blunkett, Baoteng all backed him later on


  8. Gillig says :

    @ darrellgoodliffe
    Sir Norman Tebbit, March 7th, 2011, Telegraph blog.
    Of course I understand why many former Conservative voters now vote UKIP, and defectors strengthen the hands of me and my friends who are trying to put the Party back on track. Of course I also understand why many former conservatives have now become UKIP supporters. What is more, I am flattered that so many of those, think it would help UKIP if I joined them, even suggesting that I should become leader. As I will be 84 by the time of the next election (if I last that long), I think I might be a bit too old for that, so I think Tebbit for PM is being a bit optimistic too!
    (I have edited , but it is still in context.)


  9. darrellgoodliffe says :


    It says alot about the kind of Labour Party member you are that you can say that. Your remarks are nothing short of an utter disgrace – you back somebody like Tebbit against Foot. My problem is his politics which stink to high heaven.


    Not quite sure what your point is….?


  10. Gillig says :

    Sir Norman Tebbit won’t switch parties because he is too old.
    What’s your excuse?
    You say we have racial tensions because Labour restricted immigration.
    In your “make believe open borders world”, you still haven’t worked out to whom I pay tax? Where I can vote and who for? Who pays for social services? You might as well put free beer in your manifesto.
    Don’t address your glib reply to me; tell us how unrestricted immigration applies to someone who doesn’t want to pay tax or vote and works for cash. A drug and child trafficker, international banker or arms trader.
    Then tell me that my job is not threatened by someone offering to do it cheaper.
    Big open borders my arse.
    Did someone mention free beer?
    Fools with a global government fixation assume that this noble aim will be assisted by anything big, big government, big society, big Europe.
    Quality is more important than size. Global government will happen despite Liblabcon, not because they support anything that is big.
    While you are struggling to translate this quality common sense into your usual Bollitics, think about the size of UKIP and the disproportionate rise in Ukipism.


  11. darrellgoodliffe says :


    Because I dont want too?

    I presume you would pay tax to a regional administrative unit.

    I do and no matter how much it rises it still has a long way to eclipse both the Conservatives and Labour at least.


  12. Gillig says :

    Don’t address your glib reply to me; tell us how unrestricted immigration applies to someone who doesn’t want to pay tax or vote and works for cash. A drug and child trafficker, international banker or arms trader.


  13. Gillig says :

    To Darrel@Liblabcon;
    Ooh, you are so big
    So absolutely huge.
    Gosh, we’re all really impressed in UKIP, I can tell you.
    Forgive us, for this, our dreadful toadying, and barefaced flattery.
    But you are so strong and, well, just so super fantastic.


  14. darrellgoodliffe says :


    Now now….Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit you know…


  15. Gillig says :

    Or the only form of wit.
    Depends on the blog.
    Some answer questions and write bollitics!


  16. darrellgoodliffe says :


    Im dissappointed, I was expecting you to retort the second half to the saying which is ‘its also the highest form of intellect’…..

    In answer to your ‘question’ surely they move pretty freely in any case? I actually don’t really get what your asking so spell it out for me please.


  17. John Reid says :

    i’d criticise Oswald Mosley former labour member for beign a fascist too, mand In case you hadn’t noticed labour is a DEMCORATIC socialist party so its not a disgrace, If tebbits polices stink to high heaven why have you joined a labour party which for the last 22 years has accepted his view on trade union laws, or ddi you join labour with the intention of infultrating labour nad making it go back to the party of 1981, if swo threes a name for that.


  18. darrellgoodliffe says :


    And does not democracy include the right to call something a disgrace if that is what you think it is? Because I believe the Labour Party is part of something much bigger than you or I called the labour movement and I think its wrong on that issue and will continue to argue so.


  19. John Reid says :

    MAybe history will reveal Tony Benn and Arthur Scargill were secretly Tories who said we will demand you join a union and finacially contribute to it even if you don’t want to and you can’t criticse it we’ll decide the union and if you refuse to join you will be sacked not entiteld to unemployemnt benfenit and yuo will have no one to balme but yourself (teh closed shop) a policy that labour had at the 87 eelction ,I recall after that eelction One Union boss said that he could’nt see in his life time Labour ever winning an election again, Now I suffered because of thatcher I never had an education, I ended up homlesss living in cardboard city and the Tories could’nt care less and there was a suitable labour alternative that at least would’nt have tolerated kids living in cardboard boxes, But Heh for you the closed shop and LAbour 1980’s period was amoral victory so you can be so bloody minded as to totally refuse to believe that teh closed shop had nothing to do with democracy, and that you can beleive that if someone has a skinhead or football hoolgian image then they are inferior, same as Michael foot Calling tebbit a semi trained pole cat, Because htat didn’t drive votes from teh labour aprty by the million did it, nor by insulting the EDL saying they are football hooligans while many labour party members have criminal records or have a certain image not appealing to middle england , isn’t wrong either,


  20. John Reid says :

    Becasue Scarill and Benn ,finacially did very well out of the 1980s


  21. John Reid says :

    Read Neil Kinnocks chapter in the book how to be in oppostion, Kinnock says that Albour didn’t lose 83 due to the Falklands war one bit, the economy was getting back on track late in 81 and the Tories were strong and along with the council house sales the public were thanking the Tories for getting the economy together, Once agian teh public feel that tebbit was right on 1980’s issues and even Kinnock said in that Book that Gerald Kaufman was right to call teh 83 election “the longest suicide speech in history”

    Do you consider Gordon Brown saying when he became P>M we all recognise the Debt the country owes Margaret Thatcher in taking on the unions, If you don’t why did you join Labour when Brown was Leader.


  22. darrellgoodliffe says :


    Scargill certainly had his faults but being a Conservatives was not one of them. As for the rest of your ill-tempered comments, I only reiterate my previous comments that this political slander is nonsense. I do think the closed shop was wrong but to call it fascist or intimate it is anything of the kind is a disgrace and shows you dont understand it or facism, incidentally.

    I have a certain affection for Brown as a person but on this he was wrong. Errr because I am not a drone who has to mechanically agree with everything a Party leader says to be in it?


  23. John Reid says :

    It was’nt the closed hop I considered fascism it was after the 6 men were sacked adn not entiteld to join a unemployment benefit and Foot’s comments “they had no one to blame but themselves “that was afascistic commetn as I understand it, they were sacked without doing anything other than having to join an organisation that they had to contribute to that could decide what they thought on wages and conditions and take them out of work on the leaderships say so, and then they could’nt get dole after losing their jobs when they had’nt done anything other than being told that aprt of their job meant they should be in that union.
    what is a disgrace is that the left refuse to accept that ,this sort of intimidation and bullying was no diffiernet to the right wing fascism of Europe in the 30’s that apparently they were so agaisnt,

    yes ,you don’t have to agree wth everything the labour leader says, but you don’t talk for the labour party as any form of the views that it currently represents either,


  24. darrellgoodliffe says :


    So, expressing an opinion, however wrong it may or may not be (dont know the context but it sounds wrong) is ‘fascist’? Errr no it isn’t its you thats a disgrace. Have you any comprehension of what fascism was and did? Obviously not. How can you possibly declare this situation in any way related to a movement that butchered *millions* in labour camps and gas chambers for their ethnicity/political views/sexual orientation etc, etc.

    No and neither do you, thank god…


  25. Gillig says :

    Your claim that legally unfettered immigration would reduce racial tension is wrong.
    Trying to force this concept on any nation before we have World Government is unnecessary, it will and has caused wars.
    It is possible and desirable to have an unbiased controlled immigration policy for a nation.
    The racially biased EU immigration policy you support, is demonstrably failing; racial tensions are increasing all over Europe.
    The EU is just one more example, in a history of unworkable models for World Government.
    You can’t provide any answers to the obvious problems with open borders.
    Take tax; you say “I presume you would pay tax to a regional administrative unit.”
    I could decide I don’t live in that region, and I can go anywhere I like.
    You propose an untried system without considering the obvious faults.
    There is no precedent for an open borders policy, putting it more in the realms of religion than politics.
    Open borders will not work without World Government.
    I will spell out a simple question; what improvement in the quality of life will British people achieve, by not having their own democratically elected government in control of immigration, making their laws and working for their freedom?
    I will start you off; Europe is big Errr…


  26. John Reid says :

    when you talk about butchering millions of people in labour camps are you talking about Lenin, Trotsky Kryshkhev, Chairmand Mao or Pol Pot, and Stalin,
    Or for the matter are you talking about the 4000 people killed By Sinn Fien I,R,A or are you talking about the taxi driver who was killed doing his job taking a working miner who wans’t on strike in the Miners dispute or are you talking aobut the anti white racist murder Of P.C Blakelock int eh boradwater farm riot, a riot that had been organised that afternoon by the youth club collecting kegs, petrol bobms ,guns, blow torches and Machetes, a youth club funded by the local labour party, and teh Wapping dispute had SWP infutrate it ,looking for afight as they brought marbles to throw under Horses hoofs, they had Potatoes with razor baldes in and they had piano wire to trip the police up, let alone the paper mill they burnt down, during the dispute.

    S oa fascist is only someone who was part of the masscare of millions of people (including the Nazis) so we agree at last that the EDL ,who may have skinhead beer drinking white football fans, (some with criminal records) aren’t facists,let alone raicsts as they have Jewish black gay members, for teh record as the BNP have black members they can’t be compared to the Fascist nazis as the BNP haven’t slaughterd millions either,

    sacking those who refused to join a union and not letting them have unemployment benefit and saying they had no one to blame but themselves is opressive agiasnt liberty and democracy, I’m sure norman tebbit adn the Times newspaper calling Foot a fascist didn’t think foot had killed million of jews,
    I’ve never said i speak for the lavbour party ,but the labour party i’ve been a member of since 1987 is a dmeocratic socialist party, no a trotskyite one, like those who infultrated it in the 70’s brought in policies like the closed shop, policies that labour got rid of in 1987 and have admitted tehy were completely wrong on and have accepted Tebbits trade union reform,
    Darrell your quite welcome to have joined labour last year and try to get it to have the sort of policies it had in the early 80’s ,but please don’t say that the last 23 years of new labour have been a disgrace, and if yo can’ta ccept that labour is a democratic socialsit party and the Closed shop was undemocratic and opressive then , you should take a closer look at the words democratic and liberty.


  27. Gillig says :

    You are under attack on both flanks. If Robert agrees, (I wouldn’t argue with him at the moment). I suggest we adjourn as Robert and I have given you enough brain damage for two separate blogs.
    Paul Staines libertarian political blogger (“Guido Fawkes’) had as of February 2009, 118,000 site visitors per month. He says 1% of his readers post. I know he is the “screws of the World” of blogging, but I am sure most people read his post for the comments rather than the dubious articles.
    I review and adjust my manifesto every morning. That includes all labels like left and right fascist and racist. I usually end up with three main headings. Justice; Democracy and Freedom. You need a hammer and a condom. Knock everything into these groups, if it don’t fit, fuck it.


  28. darrellgoodliffe says :


    How many times do I have to state I am openly against the closed shop. The bone of contention is your misuse and abuse of the term fascist to describe comrades who are defending a practice that yes, I regard as wrong, but isnt fascistic.

    No I didnt say that. I said your conflation with of a wrong and overly bureaucratic and anti-democratic practice with fascism is wrong. The EDL are fascist and I can confidently say that would be the majority position of the Labour membership so what have you to say to that?

    It shows how idiotic The Times and Tebbit are. Ok, what do you call a Labour Party that increased inequality. Labour in power did do some good things; the minimum wage, peace in NI, devolution (though it didnt go far enough) but that record, of us increaseing income inequality is disgraceful and shows a lack of committment to both democracy and socialism.


    Briefly, its not possible to have a non-exclusionary immigration policy, no.

    As I keep saying its not perfect but you calling it racist is wrong headed…


  29. John Reid says :

    I don’t think that us increasing inequality shows a lck of commitnment to democracy but sd for most albour party members considering teh EDL fascists, I don;t know what the average labour party member thinks,
    Didn’t tony benn say of david blunkets and my name sake John Reid’s time at the home office its strange how easy that some of new labour went from Stalininst to near fascist without any intervening place,
    I think you’ve got people in labour who don’t campiagn becasue they remeber Bevin, Bevan Attlee and Gaitskell, or their parents joined. (despite the BNP wasnting to renationalise every thing, don’t want anything to do with america in terms of defence or WArs and want to build lots of council houses)Look at the BNP vote its mainly disilusioned former LAbour voters,including their GLA assmebly member richard Barnbrook, but even if the BNP were’nt leftwing in somethings (like the NF weren’t) i’d stillreckon most BNP votes is ex labour.
    Maybe there are old ALbour constiunecies where their members consider everyone differnet tothem (including the tories)as being fascists and against gay rights or pro Isreal etc,
    Its a shame if trotskyites infultrate labour and start calling people who are agisnt sharia laws view on Wife beating and killing gays as o.k

    In the past Darrel you have said that my cirticism of Sharia law was srtonga s in the past it was socially acceptable for the Catholic church to turn a blind eye to peadophilia

    If there are LAbour members who call the EDl fascists then that up to them as long as they call Sinn Fein I.R.A(who are the same organisation) fascists too.

    My question to you Darrell is you call the EDL fascsits for saying that Sahria law is wrong, yet If the EDl didn’t criticise sharia law ,but instead criticised the Catholic church of old for turning a blind eye topeadophilia in the church would you call the EDL fascists, for criticisng that form of catholacism too.


  30. Gillig says :

    I will spell out a simple question again; what improvement in the quality of life will British people achieve, by not having their own democratically elected government in control of immigration, making their laws and working for their freedom?
    I will start you off; Europe is big Errr…


  31. darrellgoodliffe says :


    Well, I think it does. Because social inequlity is fundementally undemocratic. You might have a point about alot of BNP voters but who votes for you doesnt determine what you are.

    *rolls eyes*

    I have said nothing of the kind.

    Sinn Fein/IRA aren’t fascists; they are nationalists. There is a difference.

    No because they are not criticising the religion but a religious institution. The EDL opportunistically use an attack on Shira Law to conceal their contempt for all Muslims just because they are Muslims.


    Well it would increase tax take for a start because no such thing as an illegal immigrant would exist and then economically they would all contribute tax, NI etc.


  32. John Reid says :

    sinn Fein I.R.A slaughtered indeterminately 4000 people to get the political views they wanted enforced on other people- i fascists,
    The EDL have muslim members, and if the EDL did criticise the institution of the Catholic church for turning a blind eye to peadophilia,then you wouldn’t ctiticiser them, o.k

    for me that just reeks of you criticising the EDL as you consider them to stereotypically being white working class football fand criticising a part f a muslim culture, so you assume they’re racist

    Yoy have said that the EDL in criticisng sharia laws condoning wife beating, gay hate crimes and that the views of the church turning a blind eye to peados was similar.

    not sure what the rofl bit means , nearly all my local labour party mmbers considered bernie grant and Diane Abbott as anti whit racists.


  33. Gillig says :

    Would you prefer to have your own democratically elected government in control of immigration, making your laws and working for your freedom?
    Or a promise from the European Union to collect more tax?
    I will start you off; I am not a twit because Europe is very big and so huge…..


  34. Gillig says :

    You say;”Briefly, its not possible to have a non-exclusionary immigration policy, no.”
    You can accept this, but where is the leap in logic that says open borders will work within the EU. It clearly doesn’t because racial tensions are rising.


  35. darrellgoodliffe says :


    No they are not. Really? Name one.

    They are by and large boot boys and hooligans yes with known and proven links to organised networks of football hooligans.

    No, I didnt.


    Id prefer it if the European Parliament was democratically elected with full sovereign, law making powers actually.

    Racial tensions are rising largely due to socio-economic factors; ie, a financial crash etc etc. Open borders and immigrants are just scapegoats.


  36. John Reid says :

    Gerry Adams was head of the Londonderry wing andMcguiness was head of the belfast wing of the I.R.A, one sinn fein councilloe done 6 yrs for the murder of a copper, several other sinn fein m.p.s areex I.R.A

    labour cllr,Dolly kiffin committed fraud and along with other labour cllr Martha osamor perverted the course of justice when they hindered the police investigation into themurder of P.C Blakelock,
    Kim Howells shredded evidence to what miners killed David wilkie in the miners strike, john stone house faked his own death, 3 labour m.p.s have form for assault in the miners strike, len duvall has form for carrying a knife ,a labour member attacked a tory at the 2005 election in Romford, 3 labour m.p.s in prison for the expenses scandal, how many of the num were looking for a fight at the miners strike?, Ken livingstone whenhead of the GLC invited leaders of Sinn Fein I.R.A after they’d killed 4000 peole down to talks, when they hadn’t given up arms, so saying the EDL have links to hooligans we ought to get our own act together, why football hooligasn comparison, because they’reworking class , what if they were posher ,would you call them rugby style hooligans who speak with a posh accent.


  37. Gillig says :

    Bobby Sands M.P.
    The Rhythm Of Time

    There’s an inner thing in every man,
    Do you know this thing my friend?
    It has withstood the blows of a million years,
    And will do so to the end.

    It was born when time did not exist,
    And it grew up out of life,
    It cut down evil’s strangling vines,
    Like a slashing searing knife.

    It lit fires when fires were not,
    And burnt the mind of man,
    Tempering leadened hearts to steel,
    From the time that time began.

    It wept by the waters of Babylon,
    And when all men were a loss,
    It screeched in writhing agony,
    And it hung bleeding from the Cross.

    It died in Rome by lion and sword,
    And in defiant cruel array,
    When the deathly word was ‘Spartacus’
    Along the Appian Way.

    It marched with Wat the Tyler’s poor,
    And frightened lord and king,
    And it was emblazoned in their deathly stare,
    As e’er a living thing.

    It smiled in holy innocence,
    Before conquistadors of old,
    So meek and tame and unaware,
    Of the deathly power of gold.

    It burst forth through pitiful Paris streets,
    And stormed the old Bastille,
    And marched upon the serpent’s head,
    And crushed it ‘neath its heel.

    It died in blood on Buffalo Plains,
    And starved by moons of rain,
    Its heart was buried in Wounded Knee,
    But it will come to rise again.

    It screamed aloud by Kerry lakes,
    As it was knelt upon the ground,
    And it died in great defiance,
    As they coldly shot it down.

    It is found in every light of hope,
    It knows no bounds nor space
    It has risen in red and black and white,
    It is there in every race.

    It lies in the hearts of heroes dead,
    It screams in tyrants’ eyes,
    It has reached the peak of mountains high,
    It comes searing ‘cross the skies.

    It lights the dark of this prison cell,
    It thunders forth its might,
    It is ‘the undauntable thought’, my friend,
    That thought that says ‘I’m right.


  38. darrellgoodliffe says :


    I am aware the IRA killed people, you know. We did have talks with them and look what prize we won, peace in Northern Ireland. Thank god you had no input on these dealings.

    Errr no, its because thats what they are. Nothing to do with class.


    Errr thanks for the poem.


  39. John Reid says :

    rnak god you had no talks with the IRA or they’re cirminal cinvictions would have beenn quashed and the UDA would’nt have been released from prison and even thought he majority of Catholic/Protestants in N.I want N.I to be art of the U.K you would have forced N.I to leave the U.k and join Ireland. the reason sinnfein IRA went to the peace table was becasue they had lost, they wanteda united IReland and they had to settle for not geting one, due to Margaret thatcher saying, “there’s no such ting as political prisoner only criminal ones “and she just ignored them, and they new the game was up and had to settle for a compromise,

    do you consider the countryside alliance fighting to save their jobs at the fos hunting protest, Middleclass hoolingans, would you say that the fact that they liek real ale, wear rugby shirts and wanteda fightt hey are middle class hooligans, like hooray henry’s or do you consider, them just looking for a fight, afterall as iv’e pointed out there were more UAF members arrested at the prostests than EDl, baring in mind the polce are too scared to arrest muslims setting fire to poppies or having race hate placards saying all white people are racists ,kill gays, or burn our troops or british polcei goto hell etc. I know you last time said that hte reson there were more UAF arrested than EDL was because you considered the polcie raicst, but surely rhe police to scared to arrest radical muslim becasue they were afraid of being called racsit proves this isn’t the case.


  40. John Reid says :

    Of course if Sinn Fein I.R.A had’nt slaughtered 4000 people there wouldn’t have been the need for peace talks in the first place…..


  41. John Reid says :

    saying the EDL are hooligans based on a few, would you say that everyone on strike in the miners dispute of 84-85 was a hooligan based on the ones that were arrested and found guilty of assauly at that time..


  42. Gillig says :

    You are welcome.
    Slightly off subject, it’s worth remembering that Bobby Sands became an elected MP while he died in prison on hunger strike.


  43. John Reid says :

    bobby sands was in prison for bieng a terrorist, -Margaret thatcher there’s no such thing as a political prisoner ,just a criminal one,


  44. John Reid says :

    It MAYBE A deeply held belief of a former ira Member who served his time for killing a copper,now he shows no remorse for what he’d done he accepts it was right he went to prison as it was illegal what he’d done and the state sees him as a killer,its his right to return to politics as being part of a party that was also a terrorist organistation, saying that Theresa May supported the original Tory line of homophobia or Alistair Darling alan miburn or jack straw as former Trotskyites, yet I have to admire Alan Milburns NHS reforms, Straw introducing the HRa and Darlings good handling of the economy


  45. darrellgoodliffe says :


    Maybe thats true but then again if we hadn’t partinoned Ireland and let the authorties in Ulster treat their Catholic citizens shamefully there wouldn’t have been either now would there have been? So, there is plenty of blame to go around.

    Thatcher, as was frequently the case, was talking rubbish in this instance. One wonders what she made of Nelson Mandela then. I doubt she would have been brave or foolish enough to say the same thing in his case. Then again maybe she would but hardly anybody would agree with her. Maybe she learned that little rhetorical flourish from the butcher of democracy in Chile, General Pinochet, who knows. Im sure he had to tell himself something to get to sleep at night.

    If we are trading sayings btw here is another one, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter and as Gillig points out in the case of Sands that was clearly recognised by the people that elected him.


  46. Gillig says :

    @darrellgoodliffe, you say; I’d prefer it if the European Parliament was democratically elected with full sovereign, law making powers. Racial tensions are rising largely due to socio-economic factors; ie, a financial crash etc. Open borders and immigrants are just scapegoats.” You say “As I keep saying it’s not perfect but you calling it racist is wrong headed.”
    Prove I am wrongheaded. We do not have the European Parliament of your delusions. Open borders and immigrants defiantly do cause racial tensions. To pretend they don’t and are scapegoats is deluded. Economic factors also cause racial tension.
    It is self evident that discriminating against some races in favor of others is a dictionary definition of racism. This is Labour policy, you support it and that makes you racist. Now prove me wrong.


  47. John Reid says :

    But the I.R.A didn’t call themselves terroist s or freedom fighters they said it was a war, if thats the case then their country was Ireland and they had invaded a foriegn country Northern Ireland and as such should have been locked up in prisoner of war camps as for comparing the IRA, to Nelson Mandela who was prepared to go to prison for very minimal acts of explosion and for fundraisng for blowing up buildings that did unfortuantely did kill people, Mandela was living in a repressive dictatorship, ,the Catholic people in Northern Ireland weren;t,
    Margaret thatcher would have been called mad if she had compared Stalin to Castro or Guevaras ,cuba


  48. John Reid says :

    I reall yfind it wrong when people compare the way the black poeple of south africa suffered to others, we all know there’ santi white racism in teh U.K , and theres anti white racism In Zimbabwe by Mugabe Look at Peter Tathcell he attacked Mugabe when he tried to arrest him for his bigotry, supposed the Stephen Lawrnece suspects sadi becuase there’s anti white raicsm ,that their alleged attack on Lawrence was the same as tatchell trying to attack Mugabe


  49. darrellgoodliffe says :


    It is not a ‘racist policy’ – well, no more so than any other immigration policy which by virtue of what it is does exclude some and allow others in. It is nonetheless a step towards open borders which is what I want.


    I like the way, a priori, you assume everybody shares your view:

    “we all know there’ santi white racism in teh U.K”

    I didnt say they were directly the same although yes I both think they had legitimate grivences as their respective communities were treated like dirt and basically oppressed. In their own terms, I think the IRA no doubt described what they exactly felt they were fighting – terrorism can take many forms and much of the treatment of Northern Irish Catholics by the Ulster statelet, with the complicity of the British government was terroristic, it was state terror inflicted by the state on a section of its own population.

    Thats the point of the saying, its to take a more rounded view of what is being discussed which I see your not exactly putting forward really…


  50. John Reid says :

    did rthe state go around stringing up willy nilly Cathoilic pepole the way the South african police did, and nelson mandles was beaten up while in custody and urinated on, suppose someone was rounded up having commited no crime in Northen Ireland and treeted the same, then you;d have aifar comparison, I didn’t realise that cathoilics in Norhten Ireland could’nt vote, the way the Balck people of south aftirca didn’t I also didn’t know they weren’t allowed in certain areas either,

    the Fact that protestant people had the majority vote and as such could’ inpose their demands form the U.K gov’t of the day and the catholics got worse treated as time went by, wasnt state terror on the catholics!


  51. darrellgoodliffe says :


    Not quite in that way but they were treated as second class citizens. How the Catholic civil rights movement was treated was state terror and thats no doubt why even David Cameron felt compelled to apologise for Bloody Sunday.


  52. John Reid says :

    Maybe ,but the army was sent in two years earlier to protect catholic civil rights people form protestant thugs!
    I think the apolgy was for wrongly saying that the 13 people whot were in the IRA, apart from Martin Mcguiness firing the first shot, i don’t thinkl many of the poeple who through rocks at the army that day were in the IRA,


  53. darrellgoodliffe says :


    Maybe that was the pretext for their ‘sending in’ but they obviously did not achieve that now did they. I disagree and your comments show amazing ignorance of the substantial body of evidence to the contrary.


  54. Gillig says :

    An immigration policy which does not discriminate on grounds of race is not racist.
    You support a policy which does discriminate on grounds of race. Your actions are racist and your denial is piontless.
    There is a real world where actions count, and words are just words.


  55. John Reid says :

    No the army didn’t achieve orotection for Catholics ,but they welcomed them in 69, how things would change within 3 years. Wheres my ignorance? jim Callaghan ,sent them in He never regretted it,


  56. darrellgoodliffe says :


    They did change because the Army did not protect them and that is why they turned to the IRA and others.


  57. John Reid says :

    and started killing the people who were there for their protection…


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